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Author Topic:   Your thoughts on upcomming exam
Polybob
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posted 06-25-2008 12:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polybob   Click Here to Email Polybob     Edit/Delete Message
I have an interesting exam comming up and I'm looking for thoughts on control questions and/or areas to develop control questions during the pretest interview. After the exam is completed I will attempt to post the charts for all to see. Please note that I have never posted anything on a board so I will probably need direction on how to do it.
Briefly here are the facts. The examinee has been in prison for 23 years after being convicted of murder. Victim was shot and he was convicted of being the shooter. He still maintains his innocence. Although he admittedly says he argued with the victim that night he maintains he remained in the home where the agruement occured and the victim was shot down in the street a few blocks away. During the last 10 years new and independent information has come out that strongly points to another person doing the murder. The examinee has tried through his attorney to get a new trial but that has been denied. Now his hope is for parole. The problem is that the parole board requires parolees admit their guilt and he refuses to do so as he maintains his innocence. Examinee's plan is to be able to present an NDI polygraph report to the parole board in an attempt to convince them to release him on parole even though he will not admit his guilt. The specific issue on the exam will be 'Did you shoot that man'.
Since he has been in prison for so long my thought is to time bar the control questions along the line of: Since you have been in prison ....? Once again I'm looking for thoughts on this and then after the exam I will post the charts for all to see.

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ebvan
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posted 06-25-2008 01:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebvan   Click Here to Email ebvan     Edit/Delete Message
CQ Have you committed any crime while in prison that could possibly prevent your release.

CQ Have you violated any inmate rules that could could result in additional punishment. (you'll probably have to refine this one due to admissions.)

I hope this helps a bit

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Ex scientia veritas

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Buster
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posted 06-25-2008 01:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message
Nice Bob. If you are lazy(like me), Nelson would post my charts on the board for me. He also analyzed the charts using his new scoring system.

Good luck.

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Barry C
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posted 06-25-2008 02:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
There's no research to show one type of barring phrase is better than any other (and some to show bars aren't necessary at all). So, use what the Canadians use: "Not connected with this case..." (or any form of that question). It captures all of the examinee's life before and after the event - but it doesn't capture the event. If you're worried about violating format rules, then run a Utah test and use those bars. I've been teaching it that way since I had this conversation with Dr. Honts a few years ago.

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Barry C
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posted 06-25-2008 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
By the way, "since you've been in prison" only captures the person's life since the event, and we usually look at the before portion. What I suggest gathers both.

For murder / shooting CQs you can go wide and pre-test them to mean anything that works. For example, (and this wouldn't need a bar) "Have you ever done anything illegal for which you weren't caught? NCWTC, did you ever hurt anyone? (Pre-test "hurt" to mean physically, emotionally, financially, spiritually, whatever.)

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ckieso
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posted 06-25-2008 04:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ckieso   Click Here to Email ckieso     Edit/Delete Message
I'm sorry what does "NCWTC" stand for?

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ckieso
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posted 06-25-2008 04:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ckieso   Click Here to Email ckieso     Edit/Delete Message
I see in your previous post "not connected with this case." Sorry.

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Taylor
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posted 06-25-2008 04:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Taylor   Click Here to Email Taylor     Edit/Delete Message
'Snitching' is always a good CQ for the convicts.

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ebvan
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posted 06-26-2008 08:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebvan   Click Here to Email ebvan     Edit/Delete Message
Barry I agree what you suggested captures both side of the conviction,but I don't see any advanatage in trying to set comparison questions regarding events occuring prior to his conviction.

This guy has been in jail for over 20 years. Any crimes he may have committed before his incarceration except for another murder have fallen victim to the statutes of limitation. He has nothing to fear from their discovery.

Any hurt or injury issues before conviction have probably been diluted by time. The post conviction acts committed by an innocent but incargerated examinee would likely target a deep held concern that even if he didn't commit the murder he might still have to stay in prison.

Could you expand on your opinions regarding pre conviction comparison issues?

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Ex scientia veritas

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Barry C
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posted 06-26-2008 08:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
Why does "fear" of their discovery matter? You're falling victim to the "fear is the reason polygraph works" mentality - something long disproved. (Why do lab studies work?) The idea is create salience in the CQs. If you set them up as profile questions, character questions, etc, and you talk about past behavior (i.e., before the crime) then you are creating that salience. The more you restrict your time bars, then the more you increase your chances of a false positive, at least theoretically. What you're saying is behavior prior to 20 years ago won't help, but we have no evidence of that. Intuitively, it couldn't hurt, so why limit yourself?

Try it, and I'll bet you get admissions to 20+-year-old stuff and you'll see things come to mind rather easily - an uncertainty even more so.

Twenty years is a long time, but what are you going to use for CQs that you can sell as relevant to the RQs? I think snitching is a good one, but I don't know how I'd make the connection to murder using the "profile" approach to setting comparisons - unless you went the route of selfish, always doing anything to get ahead, etc.

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ebvan
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posted 06-26-2008 10:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebvan   Click Here to Email ebvan     Edit/Delete Message
Let's for the sake of discussion assume that this subject is guilty of the crime for which he has been incarcerated for 23 years. and you construct comparison questions that deal with his life prior to his conviction. What happens if there IS an undiscovered homicide and you ask NCWTC type comparison question regarding an undiscovered crime or having done something he for which he could have gone to jail? do you think that the undiscovered homicide might result in a NDI on the relevent issue?
I would tend to argue that an undiscovered homicide just might be the exception to the adage that "You can't ask a CQ that can be too hot"
If it could cause an NDI and that is used successfully to support his release, what are the consequences? A double murderer back on the street?
On the other hand if we assume that he is innocent.
In regard to assumption that I am only focused on Fear of Detection, let me say that I find post conviction infractions to be fertile ground for generating Cognitive Dissonence due to anxiety because if this guy is innocent he should have a great deal of concern concerning any behavior he demonstrated during his incarceration that would be inconsistent with a person wrongly convicted of a crime.
secondly, I see the process of making the CQ's salient simpler concerning recent behaviors rather than something done over twenty years ago.
Thirdly Infractions while incarcerated are excellent probable lies considering the length of incarceration. Having to respond to question that either a yes in the pre-test or no during the test might result in continued incarceration is a pretty good "catch 22"

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Barry C
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posted 06-26-2008 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
do you think that the undiscovered homicide might result in a NDI on the relevent issue?

No, I don't. If that were the case, we could then argue that we should be suspicious of every NDI because the subject might be a killer who got away with it. Moreover, how often do we test a person for crime A when we already know about crime B but haven't let the cat out of the bag? We keep crime B quiet to know we have a good CQ that is a real lie - at least those of us who use CQs with bars that allow the capture of crime B such as "NCWTC."

You never know what a person has done that might be a bigger issue than the one you're testing on. Cheating on one's spouse may be "bigger" in that person's mind than most crimes, and we capitalize on those types of things with our CQs. How a question gets its salience is based on the context. In a polygraph situation, what we know is that it's hard for a liar to see the CQs as more salient than the RQs. Why we have errors, we don't know. Maybe your hypothesis is correct, but I doubt it. Until we have proof though, I wouldn't suggest we change the way we operate.

quote:
I see the process of making the CQ's salient simpler concerning recent behaviors rather than something done over twenty years ago.

I'm not sure I understand this one. If you are referring to memory being better for recent events than older events due to decay, then okay, but remember they don't have to be lies. You only have to create uncertainty, so your "old" transgressions are fertile ground. If you ask this guy if he ever hurt anyone - and include his entire life - do you think he can ever say "no" with any confidence? Of course not.

You might have to sell this test (and polygraph theory) to somebody down the road. Why not make the CQs as ambiguous as possible so anybody (who's not an examiner) can say a no answer is definitely not true if for no other reason than the answer can't be known. Remember: a CQ for which the answer is a lie or an "I don't really know" is the PLCQ you are shooting for.

I like the catch 22, but what are the ways in which people are applying them? That is, how are they sold to the examinee as relevant?

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rnelson
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posted 06-26-2008 12:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message
Bob,

Thanks for the interesting case.

While we're involved in all of this fun psychologizing of the CQs, lets not to forget to also torment the RQs some.

What we're really talking about is the decay of the signal value of any CQ material in the subject's. We've not studies this well, so all we can do is guess, hypothesize and state our expert opinion (keeping in mind that expert opinions in science are worth about the same as non-expert opinions).

We can't reasonably talk about decay of the signal, which is really the issue of desensitization or habituation, without also being willing to discuss the possibilities pertaining to sensitization and dishabituation. What we're really talking about is the saliency of the signals from the CQs and RQs.

This subject has had 20 years to ponder the RQ. What that could mean is that the RQ signal is perfectly clear, and salient. Meaning that a test subject might attend and respond physiologically to the RQs regardless of whether he did it. An opposite argument would be that he's had 20 years to habituate and desensitize himself to the RQ, meaning he might not respond to the RQ even if he did it – that would be a FN. On the other hand, conditioned response theory reminds us that there may be more than one way to condition a response potential, and that 20 years of consequences and rumination might accomplish that – with a corresponding increase in the potential for an FP.

Now consider what we know about orienting theory, including orienting and defensive responses, which are theorized to be differential responses to neutral/novel and threatening stimuli. The divergent validity of the OR and DR is week, so we're wise to be a little careful with this, but ORs and DRs are thought to play a role in the magnitude of differential reactivity to CQs and RQs. I don't think it would be accurate to take and “either or” approach to this without data and proof, so it is better to assume that both CQs and RQs may produce DRs. Neutral questions can be more easily assumed to prompt ORs. Run a few tests and you'll sometimes notice ORs to N questions that are as large as what we presume to be DRs to RQs. In my experience this is mostly in the EDA, not the cardio. If it is possible that a truthful subject, having pondered the RQ for 20+ years in prison and now hoping for parole, could perceive the RQs as more threatening than the CQs then orienting theory cannot preclude the possibility of a FP. At the same time, at the same time, a guilty subject who has already served 20+ years may not experience any threat from the RQs, because he's already been consequenced, and may be calloused and cynical about the attitudes, intentions, and desires of persons around him. So, here comes the polygraph guy, who asked him “did you do it,” to which he experiences no real threat (he's already in prison). The polygraph guy then tries to take him for a ride over those other stupid questions that have nothing to do with whether he gets paroled. But the novelty of those issues may be unavoidable, so he reacts to them. What you now have is the possibility of a FN.

For the subject, all of this activity is occurring in the brain. It is doubtful that a polygraph guy is going to present at serious FFF level threat to a 20 year prison inmate - unless the polygraph guy is a meat-headed type who resorts to directly threatening the parole possibility. The problem with that approach is that the subject is then prompted to react to the examiner, not the question stimulus. Good testing science and good testing practices require that the test administrator is not the test stimulus, else the possibilities of errors and manipulated results are endless. Examinee excuses are endless too (“the polygraph guy was a jerk and he scared me, and I was reacting to him not the question”). So, most of the the cognitive activity will be in the prefrontal cortex, which is responsible for attention, problems solving, and judgment, with some activity in the Amygdala (which will evaluate the level of threat presented by the stimulus), and Hypothalamus (which plays a role in emotions, temperature, and the regulation of autonomic respiration). While the hippocampus is responsible for short term and working memory and the storage of information into long term memory, it is the prefrontal cortex, again, that is responsible for the processing of long term memories (i.e., RQ and CQ material). The prefrontal cortex, like the other lobes, is enervated by sympathetic acetylcholine. The postganglionic sympathetic neurons in the skin, which enervate the eccrine sweat glands, are also enervated by sympathetic acetylcholine – which is why orienting responses, distraction, and sometimes even mental activity will appear in the EDA (which may have more to do with acetylcholine than sweat per se – else why does the EDA work so well with bricklayers when an electrolytic gel such as potassium chloride is applied to the electrodes). Anyway, all of the business of attending to an RQ is simple – he did it or he didn't, but he has long ago decided what he's going to say and what ideas he will entertain in his head (prefrontal cortex) regarding the RQ matter. Activity is minimal. If he is guilty, we also have these blasted CQs to answer, and those are not so practiced or rehearsed, and may require more cognitive activity (in the prefront cortex) to decide upon and assure oneself of the best answer. What you now have is the formula for a FN result. On the other hand, if the RQ prompts a return to rumination or perseveration – because the RQ issue is the one that may help decide a parole opportunity – and those CQs are regarded as mere inconveniences, then a truthful subject could exhibit greater reaction to the RQs, with a corresponding FP result.

You'll notice that each of these three well establish psychophysiological constructs may play an important role. All of them begin to explain why the CQT works. None of them are adequate by themselves, and none of them can preclude a FN or FP error. It is generally regarded as unwise to limit ourselves to a single mechanism or theoretical framework. Instead what we should do is develop an integrative understanding of various well established constructs that explain the CQT.

I disagree with the suggestion that we don't have a proven construct to explain the CQT. We have several, its not our job to prove them, but disprove them. I think we have dis-proven the ideas of “fear” and FFF. FFF itself is a global and diffuse reaction. Polygraph reactions are more discrete. Fear theories cannot account for DLCs, cannot account for the effectiveness of the polygraph with psychopaths, and cannot account for the convergence of results between laboratory and field studies. Conditioned response theory, orienting theory, and neuro-cognitive theories can account for DLC's, psychopaths, and lab studies. They can also help us to understand the possibilities for FN and FP results.

What we polygraph examiners tend to do is to degrade our own conversations and hypotheses into metaphorical inaccuracies , usually involving oversimplified and inadequate emotional explanations such as fear, guilty and FFF. We like metaphors like “hot,” and “wide,” because they are understandable and accessible. Most people will borrow conceptual language from simple or known phenomena when attempting to describe or understand complex or unfamiliar phenomena. It is important to remember that words like “hot” and “wide” are metaphors, and not take the concepts literally. Even words like “anxiety,” “stress,” “nervousness,” and “fear” (and FFF) are metaphors, because the polygraph does not actually measure those things in a literal sense. We do this primarily because we are not adequately conversant with the psychological theories, or are afraid of the big words. Its time not to be afraid of the big words.

Cognitive Dissonance is another example. Cognitive dissonance is a concept that comes from cognitive psychology, just as Anxiety is a concept that comes from psychodynamic psychology. Cognitive dissonance does not come from anxiety, it is said to come from attempting to hold two incompatible ideas, or ideas that are incompatible with behavior. For example: a person enjoying a cigarette during a break, would experience cognitive dissonance if he told himself “smoking is disgusting, unhealthy, and will eventually kill me,” instead of “how nice, a break, and relaxation from a smoke.” Cognitive dissonance is thought to motivate behavior and to eventually increasing the likelihood the person stops smoking. The second statement (relaxation) is non-dissonant, and consonant with continued smoking. Cognitive dissonance is an alternative theory to psychodynamic anxiety. Cognitive dissonance is the idea that a new idea or information that is incompatible with previously held ideas will begin to create a change in something (hopefully behavior, but sometimes in ideas). Sometimes, incompatible or dissonant cognitions are reconciled with a third idea. At other times dissonant ideas or dissonant information is reconciled by simply rejecting or ignoring the more intolerable idea (For example, see the UFO expectancies, or observe the arguments for sticking with complex polygraph scoring systems in the face of scientific evidence that says complex models overfit data more readily, generalize to new data less efficiently, and have poorer interrater reliability).

It's OK to borrow language and concepts while learning, but be careful not to take the words literally.

I think ebvan is on point regarding the richness (another metaphor) of CQ material while incarcerated. You could work this a number of ways, including descending (another metaphor) into criminality even though he didn't do it, giving up on decency, bad behavior rubbing off on him (another metaphor), maintaining his integrity even though wrongly convicted, general imperfect humanness and the need to “get everything out of the way of the test result, but still look good for the Parole Board.”

My suggestion is to refrain from overly psychologizing this case or any other case. I've said it before, and I'll say it again – we polygraph examiners do a lot more psychologizing than any psychotherapist or psychologist whom I know. We allow ourselves to believe that we know what is going on in the mind of the subject. We don't and we can't.

Consider the possibility of an undetected prior murder (its good to consider it). Do we believe that an undetected murder, for which he can simply say nothing and never be prosecuted, would cause the CQs to become more salient for a guilty convicted murderer, who may or may not get parole depending on his reaction to the specific question about the known murder? It's OK to wonder about this, but it seems unwise to try to settle the question with our opinion.

Opinions are great, and discussions are great. Just remember what they say about opinions: like certain parts of the anatomy, everybody has got one, and anyone without an opinion is full of S%$^*. Obviously, I don't subscribe to the version of this adage that suggests no-body wants our opinions. To me that is too much like “don't think for yourself,” which in psychotherapy and family therapy is like telling people not to be smart, and not to “be” (in the shakespearian or existential sense). Its called “bad parenting.” People are supposed to think, and have opinions. We are also supposed to be responsible with our opinions, which means not imposing them on others while sharing them. Data and knowledge from research is different than opinion, and it is reasonable to ask people to respond to knowledge and data.

Remembers that what we do in polygraph testing is to make inferences about the probability of a subject's truthfulness or deception, based on measured differential reactivity to the saliency of test stimuli which involve the target of the investigation and comparison material in the form of probable or directed lies.

Despite all of the complexities above, our collective practical experience tells us that the polygraph works, and. Our experience also tells us the polygraph is not perfect.

Keep in mind that this subject now has 20 years of prison inmate head-games, and may be a bit difficult to manipulate, intimidate, or fool. He'll go along with what he chooses to, and he'll cooperate superficially when he perceives that he had to do so. But it may be tough to actually convince him of anything.

My suggestion is to run a good solid single-issue Zone with three similar versions of “did you do it.”

It would make most sense to use a Utah Zone, because the publications indicate it provides the best diagnostic profile for evidentiary purposes. I like the Army Zone, and the Bi-Zone/You-Phase, but it seems to me to make no sense to consider using anything but a Utah Zone in a case like this. (Lou?)

The Utah decision policies emphasize a grand total cutscores only, with no emphasis on spot scores. This has been validated and provides the best balanced in terms of sensitivity to deception and specificity to truthfulness. We know that the spot scoring rule increases sensitivity to deception, but at a cost of FP errors. There is a time and place for maximizing sensitivity, and other times and places for maximizing balanced accuracy profiles. This is an evidentiary test, and the Utah is validated this way.

Of course, you could always select one of those “perfect” or near-perfect techniques, from some cloistered laboratory that doesn't make its data or experimental models available for external review., and doesn't bother with things like being accountable for statistical integrity. I would go with the technique that came from a series of studies from researchers who employ sound theory and sound science, aren't afraid of showing and discussing math and statistical results, fully document their development experiments.

Utah uses time-barred CQs, but it's probably not wrong or invalid to conduct it without the time bars. Perhaps Gordon Barland knows more. (Gee it would be great to have someone like Charles Honts to chime in on something like this.) Because the issue is aged, and behavioral history both before and after the conviction may be complex, I like Barry's suggestion from the Canadians - “Not connected with this case,” in place of the time bar.

Score the test using a validated method – preferably one with good statistical and measurement theory, and one which can provide a statistical classifier.

Use a computer algorithm or two for discussion purposes, but select an algorithm for which you can understand the features and troubleshoot any discrepancies with your results. It also makes sense to select scoring algorithm for which there is a fully documented transformation and decision model, so that you are capable of understanding how the computer achieved the result. Especially, don't let the computer score data that you wouldn't score yourself (if it the data stink, exclude it from the analysis). Run enough charts to collect a sufficient volume of scorable/interpretable data (the Utah Zone allows up to five charts if necessary).

Then, show the charts to others and get feedback about any strengths and weaknesses – that way there is no surprise when the opposing counsel's expert wants to criticize a test, and you'll have your arguments prepared in advance.

But mostly, run a good straightforward test and don't overly-psychologize the event. Evaluate your subject before the test (get the records), and learn how to work him. Make the CQs into a set of probable lies that would be a bigger dilemma for him than the RQs, if he were truthful. Remember that the RQs will probably take care of themselves.

Just run a good test, with a good technique supported by good science.

We have not adequately studied long-term signal decay, sensitization, habituation, and dis-habituation. What we know is that these are real issues to wonder about, but its too soon to reach any conclusions. We also know it is just as unwise to settle unanswered research questions with our “expert opinion” as with some non-expert opinion. The little bit of data on retest habituation (only partially related to long term desensitization) issues seems to suggest that while the phenomena are real and observable, it may or may present an interfering variable to good polygraph work.

As always, all of this is just my,

.02

r

P.S. Thanks Polybob. These are great discussions. Even if we disagree, any discussion can amount to important new learning, as long as we have the discussion.


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)


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ebvan
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posted 06-26-2008 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebvan   Click Here to Email ebvan     Edit/Delete Message
Ray, I don't disagree with most of what I was able to translate from your post. The only thing I would like to clarify is that as I understand the concept.

Cognitive Dissonance does not come from Anxiety.

Anxiety comes from Cognitive Dissonance. I believe that the anxiety is generated by the examinees inability to resolve the dissonance within the compressed time frame of the test

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[This message has been edited by ebvan (edited 06-26-2008).]

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rnelson
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posted 06-26-2008 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message
Ebvan,

quote:
as I understand the concept.

Cognitive Dissonance does not come from Anxiety.

Anxiety comes from Cognitive Dissonance. I believe that the anxiety is generated by the examinees inability to resolve the dissonance within the compressed time frame of the test


You are not completely wrong, but the language usage is vague.

The term Anxiety belongs to psychodynamic psychology, like Freud, Jung, and Adler (even though Adler was eclectic and systems oriented too). In psychodynamic psychology, the resolution, avoidance, and reduction of anxiety is assumed to be a motivator for choice and behavior. It is an emotional construct.

Cognitive dissonance comes from cognitive psychology, which, strictly speaking, does not assign the origins of motivation to affect (feelings) but cognition. Cognitive psychology also, strictly speaking, attempts to account for cognition without using emotional metaphors (e.g, anxiety) to do so. That's why they used the term dissonance, which is also a metaphor (implying sound), but is free of the emotional connotations and stipulated meanings from psychodynamic theory. Mixing these things would be like finding a Mistubishi transmission in my Ford pickup.

Funny thing is. It happens all the time. My Ford pickup has a Mitsubishi tranny. My old Jeep (Chrysler) had a Peugeot gearbox, and when we replaced it with a unit from a wrecked Jeep it was a 700R4 from GM. AMC design specs also had Delco ignition in my Jeep.

I guess it's OK to mix and match, and use what works.

Cognitive psychology comes to us from the likes of an American named Arron Beck and a Canadian named Donald Michenbaum. There are others who've done more since them, but the gist of it is that Psychodynamics regarded emotional content as the origin of motivation, and felt that cognition and behavior were mediated by emotion. Cognitive psychologists would argue that emotions are mediated by cognition, as you have stated. Behaviorists (strict behaviorists) would state that choice is about learning only, and perhaps even that emotions are learned behaviors, but learning still depends on cognition. So, Michenbaum taught and talked about what he called cognitive-behavioral psychotherapy. He did work in PTSD and stress-inoculation therapy for various phobic anxiety disorders, like fear of snakes and agoraphobia.

It's OK to borrow metaphorical language for simple teaching explanations, but it is also important to be careful about what exactly we mean when we begin using terms that have well constructed, well argued, and well researched meanings. There have probably been about a godzillion dollars spent studying these things.

Therefore, strictly speaking, anxiety does not come from cognitive dissonance (that discomfort is simply called "dissonance"). In vague metaphorical terms, maybe it does.

It just occurred to me why puppies think its fun to chase their tails.

Which is the origin and which mediates which (cognition, emotion, behavior) are questions for research. Most thoughtful people will recognize that cognition, emotion, and behavior are interactive and not one-directional. Work with normal-neurotics, offenders, and addicts has shown us that talking about emotions and talking about cognitions is regular work for therapists, but even years of that doesn't accomplish much other than buying the therapist a new boat.

With offenders and addicts, we start by stopping the troublesome behaviors, and assume that the right kind of living will fundamental to our efforts to restructure their cognitions and emotions. No-body believes we can talk an addicted person to stop priming his brain with dopamine while they are still busy doing it. We have to start with their behavior.

Freudian psychoanalysis has been shown to sometimes cause more harm than good (with psychotics), because it is so vague and unstructured. With non-psychotics, people realize after a few years that they are whining a lot, blaming others, get little actual direction, and have not changed much (but they have lots of insight and big psychology words). It is then that they begin to wonder what it is about themselves for which they should be taking more responsibility and making personal changes.

For an interesting read, see Hillman and Ventura's book - "We've Had 100 Years of Psychotherapy and the World is Getting Worse." Hillman is a phenomenological psychologist (though I'm not sure we should allow that kind of thing) and a Jungian. Ventura is a newspaper reporter from the LA Weekly (some might suggest we shouldn't allow that either).

Another interesting read would be the essays of Jay Hayley, the brilliant and arrogant advocate for solution-focused psychotherapy. He would say that if you can't accomplish something in 8 sessions then it's not going to happen. There is some research to support this, and managed care loves it - they pay for 8 sessions, not 6 years.

Jay Hayley's essays are titled: "the art of being a schizophrenic," "how to be a failure as a psychotherapist," and "the power tactics of Jesus Christ."

So, my .02 on psychotherapy is that all of the 100 years of psychologizing and the godzillian dollars worth of research in psychology have disproved most interesting ideas. Two ideas have stood the test of time, including scrutiny under research and field experience with dysfunctional people: 1) most people do better when the take responsibility for themselves and stop blaming others and making excuses, and 2) most people do better when they have a viable and functional support system - including some feedback and some structure - whether it is friends, family, spouse, church, therapy group, social worker, probation officer or containment team.

Just remember that some of our words and concepts have stipulated meanings that come from a body of theoretical science. Misusing these concepts in front of our detractors might be hazardous at times.


Peace,


r

r


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"Gentlemen, you can't fight in here. This is the war room."
--(Stanley Kubrick/Peter Sellers - Dr. Strangelove, 1964)

[This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 06-26-2008).]

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ebvan
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posted 06-26-2008 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ebvan   Click Here to Email ebvan     Edit/Delete Message
Can you pont me towards an authoritative source that defines dissonance as discomfort.

Every resource I have found thus far defines dissonance as inconsistancy. It seems to me that any discomfort caused by dissonance or inconsistancy should have another name. Anxiety seems to fit a general description of a group of physiological changes brought about by the inconsistancy.

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Barry C
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posted 06-26-2008 05:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
It's an inconsistency that creates conflict, which I would think would qualify as discomfort.

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rnelson
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posted 06-26-2008 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rnelson   Click Here to Email rnelson     Edit/Delete Message
dissonance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-tone_technique
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Schoenberg

listening to this stuff makes me anxious.

r


[This message has been edited by rnelson (edited 06-26-2008).]

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Polybob
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posted 06-27-2008 08:36 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Polybob   Click Here to Email Polybob     Edit/Delete Message
Thanks to everyone for your responses. I have really enjoyed reading all of the responses - there is a lot to think about and even a new word or two to look up. I was originally planning on using the Utah Zone with 3 RQ's. For CQ's I am leaning toward using both 'Since you have been in prison have you ...? and also a NCWTC to cover his life before the incident. The only issue with that might be the fact that he was an inner city kid from a tough section of one of the countries largest cities. On that issue I'll just have to see what comes out of the pretest interview and If I can shut him down after 1 or 2 admissions. I'm also thinking about using a lie CQ and tying it to his mother who has been his strongest supporter or to his appeals attorney - 'Have you told any lies to your attorney about this case?'.
The exam is on Tuesday 7/1 so I still have time to think about it. I have done several appeals type tests in the past and even though we as examiners try to go into a test with an open mind we are also human. Usually the examinee looks guilty even before we conduct the exam. This one seems different. I am a retiree LEO with 30 years on the job and 20 of thoes years I was a criminal investigator. I have heard all sorts of stories and put a lot of people in jail and prison. Some of them even said they were innocent. All that I have read and reviewed on this case - police reports, witness interviews, appeal notices etc. point to another named person as the one who did this murder. If this one turns out NDI there will no doubt be a number of people looking at the charts and questioning me about all aspects of the exam. I dont have a problem with that because I stand behind all on my work - I just want to have all my ducks in a row ahead of time.

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Taylor
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posted 06-27-2008 09:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Taylor   Click Here to Email Taylor     Edit/Delete Message
My .02 cents.
I would not use did you lie to your attorney on this case. If he did it and is denying it he has lied to his attorney. Lying to his ma (his supporter) would be a good one but I would preface it with NCWTC.
Taylor

[This message has been edited by Taylor (edited 06-27-2008).]

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Barry C
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posted 06-27-2008 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Barry C   Click Here to Email Barry C     Edit/Delete Message
Why limit the lie to one person? Why not ask, "NCWTC did you ever tell a serious lie to anybody?" You can pre-test lawyer, mother, priest, teacher... or whatever you want.

You need to set up the question in advance, obviously. Get him to say he's not a liar somewhere in the early pre-test, and then introduce the question as one you already know the answer to because he answered it already....

"Serious" is an intentionally ambiguous term. I tell people that if they remember the lie, then it's serious to them for some reason, and you can make up what you want for such reasons. When you get an admission or two tell him, "I thought you told me you weren't a liar...." Also pay attention to his admissions. You're thinking mom and lawyer, but you'll likely find he's got a whole lot more weighing on his mind with that question. (Learn what those things are in the post-test though.)

I don't like to limit the broadness of questions because you never know what is going to pop into the guy's mind, and you want him to be at least unsure of his answer.

How do you know he's never lied to his attorney (unless this is the lie). Some people know they can tell their lawyers anything and will. You might also have to explain the test to his lawyer, and if the CQ works, you might have new issues.

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